8
While driving home from Starbucks this morning I saw a big yellow sign planted in someone’s front yard. It said, “Yes on 8. Protect Marriage.”
“Fuck you,” I said out loud.
I never – NEVER! – begrudge people their political and social points of view. Live and let live, you know? But this particular proposition seems to have crawled much further up my ass than any other I’ve come across in my twenty years as a registered voter.
If passed, Prop. 8 would take away the right for same sex couples to marry in the state of California. Read that again: “take away the right”. What is this? China?
I recognize that there are larger issues in play here, not the least of which is the biblical definition of marriage: one man, one woman. I can respect the religious beliefs of others, but I also respect the rights of men and women who don’t look, live or love exactly the same way I do. And that, I think, is the crux of this issue.
Many years ago I worked at The Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles. The single most meaningful exhibit in the building was the once dedicated to the civil rights movement – one of the most volatile and emotional periods in American history. A wall of large monitors at the exhibit reflects images and video from that period: African-American men and women being sprayed with fire hoses, hit with clubs, and hung from tree limbs by people – American people – who refused to believe all men are created equal. I remember museum visitors breaking down in front of that wall, many of them shocked to tears by America’s capacity to treat our own people with such disrespect and cruelty.
I’ve thought about that exhibit often during the current election cycle. At its roots, how is Proposition 8 different from the way this country treated African-Americans during the 1960s? The violence isn’t present, but at the crux of the issue is a belief by some that there is a group of people – American people – that does not deserve the same rights as the rest of us.
I think that’s completely fucked up.
An editorial I read the other day said Prop. 8 must be passed for the sake of the children – a precious, impressionable lot who will suffer immeasurably by having parents of the same gender. I scoffed at that. Where is the outrage about the children who suffer as a result of divorce, infidelity, abuse, and other “crimes” perpetrated by heterosexual couples? Are we to believe that even those kids are better off than those who would be raised by two loving parents who happen to have the same plumbing? Seriously, California. Give me a fucking break.
I’m disgusted that Prop. 8 is even on the ballot – that a movement to take away rights wasn’t laughed off the table the second it was brought up. Homosexuality, like dark skin, is not a crime, and it should not be treated like one.
I'm originally from Utah. That makes a lot of my childhood friends a certain religion...which is a religion I am not.
And I look at what they are being told to do when it comes to Prop 8 and I wonder out loud how they can be so blind. Not about religion, because I believe in finding profundity for ourselves, but about one of the most basic human conditions. Our differences in this aspect make me so sad.
Gay marriage will not, or will it ever, break down their families...or their futures...or their faith.
Delurking to commend you for writing this piece. Thank you for being brave enough to say what our lawmakers won't.
That's just sad. I don't understand how anyone thinks that allowing two people who love each other to be married harms anyone else. It's a crazy world. I hope it doesn't pass.
Thank you for this post, you have completely captured my opinion on the matter. Who the fuck do these people think they are to try to press their religious beliefs on others all in the name of "morality" and to "protect the innocent children". They should have the balls to state exactly what this is: bigotry.
No disrespect or offense to Hot Wife, but -- I freaking love you. Common sense is such a turn-on.
You are so many kinds of wonderful. Thank you for this post.
Beautifully said. Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, here's where I say "Amen! Praise bejesus, brother!" I couldn't agree with you more.
Surprisingly I am sure to some, I am a pretty conservative Republican on most issues, but this one, I just shake my head. People should be allowed to love the way they love.
Domestic partners will still have children, with or without a marriage certificate, so allowing gay marriage protects those very same children those twisted prop. 8 peeps are pretending to protect.
Gawd, I just wished the religious right would get the fuck out of my political party. Drives me nuts. Less government means just that. Less. As in government should stay the hell out of the bedroom, my plumbing, and yes, marriage. Jeez! It's pretty simple to me.
Very well said! In my book, everyone needs someone to love and it doesn't matter who that someone is! If only our politicians weren't a bunch of bigoted fuckwads who "believe" their way of thinking is the ONLY way of thinking!
Thank you for speaking up with so much common sense and dignity in the face of this very important issue!
I'm with you. I think there are more important things to worry about than same sex marriage. As usual, great post!
I totally agree!
In my part of the East Coast we've already had the marriage definition vote. (man/woman only, FWIW) And I just have to say I think it's sad that some people are still so threatened by the thought of two people of the same gender having the same right to marriage and all that it entails (spousal benefits, recourse in the event of a non-amicable separation, and so on).
Gah. People are so stupid and cruel.
This kind of shit drives me nuts too. And it's always the "Christians" who feel treating others this way is perfectly fine! Unbelievable and so damn frustrating.
I don't live in California - what are the odds of this actually passing? In Oregon, we had a similar measure in 1992 (Measure 9) that was defeated. I still have my button - "Straight but not narrow!"
Good luck and thanks for the great post.
oh, I almost forgot, my husband, a technical preacher (thanks to $20 at the Church of Bob via the internet)had the lovely honor of marrying my little sister and her husband 3 years ago.
He now has been asked by a dear friend to perform her marriage with the love of her life, her female partner. She had planned to leave the country to be married in Spain, but was given hope last year with the judicial rulings in California.
Yep, my husband:the guns-supporting, former Army captain and Catholic altar boy has more tolerance than what most people have in their pinky.
Now the race is on...Get married before they change the law again? Does this proposition (I don't know enough since we now live in Washington) cancel out any marriages that were legally performed this year? Ridiculous.
I hate to say it, but I noticed that my very Dad has a support prop. 8 bumper sticker on his car in the Bay area when we visited. Ugh. People let him practice his what some would say questionable religion with a history of persecution(Mormon)in peace, why can't he let other live their lives with the same freedoms? It doesn't set the bible on fire to let two loving hands join.
Tolerance. That's what we need.
Long time lurker, first time commenter (I think).
First of all, thank you for saying what I have a hard time explaining. I'm adding this to my delicious links.
Anyway. There are many children I know personally that would probably be better off with a loving married same sex couple. Plus, if you think about it, same sex couples would have to choose to have kids.. Most, if not all, will not be "accidents" that they feel they must take care of them even if they don't want to. So the children of these couples will almost always end up with a family that loves them and won't hurt them in ANY way.
At least that's the way I see it.
I'm with you on this one. I've never had a gay couple break into my house and convert me, thusly destroying my family.
It's utterly ludicrous.
Danny I'm delurking for a second to say thank you for pointing out the obvious. My parents got divorced when I was 4 because my father is gay (and has since been with his partner for over 20 years). The man my mother remarried abused me until I was old enough to stand up for myself and I moved in with my dad and his partner. My life couldn't be better with the three amazing parents I have. I have no regrets and I wouldn't change a thing about my family. Thank you for this post. I'm with Scout's Honor. I'm not asking for understanding or acceptance, just tolerance. Thanks Danny.
Amen brother!
I think kids are far more resilient than some people (Republicans, for example) give them credit for. My 8 and 10 y.o. girls know same-sex couples and haven't batted an eyelash over it. They're not traumatized or freaked out or confused in any way. Nor should they be.
Whether kids have mom and dad, dad and dad, or mom and mom, their lives are the same all over the world: They still get nagged to brush their teeth, do their homework, and not wear their muddy soccer cleats in the house. Parents love their kids regardless and that's all that matters.
Homosexuality is a chosen behavior. Whatever a person feels inside, they can choose to act on those feelings or not.
Having black skin is not a choice.
And "Taking away the right" in California simply means rescinding the right they were given recently. It's not in the US constitution by any means.
Thanks for your voice, though. I know it will get lots of support. I think it's a shame that people who are nice, not haters, just have strong beliefs about their faith, will be chastised as being assholes, haters, and Jesus freaks just because they will support Prop. 8. It seems like the only opinion that is socially acceptable is the one you are voicing, and I am sad about that. I have an opinion too. I don't hate homosexuals but I don't agree with their lifestyle choices. I don't think that makes me a narrow-minded person. It just makes me a person with an opinion. If no one had different opinions in this world, they would not be called opinions; they would be called facts.
*delurking* Damn Straight! Prop 8 in no way hurts these people (or their kids)! I am so sick of the commercial where the kid says she learned in school that she can marry a princess. Then the mom looks at her like her teacher said it's alright to eat dead rats she finds in the alleyway. If the parents have a problem with their kids concerning the issue of gay marriage they'll need to talk to the kids. It's not like the gay couples are going out to change everyone's sexual orientation or anything! They just want to be together. Big whoop.
We have a proposition like that on our ballot here in AZ....prop 102 Yes! for marriage. And you can guess that it's backed by one of the biggest churches here (the same religion that the majority of Utah is). This is one of the reasons that I am making sure I vote this election because I'm voting NO! on it. I think it's AWFUL that people want to make same sex marriage illegal. I've never understood why people are so afraid of same sex marriage..who cares..let 'em marry..I don't have the right to tell you who you can or can't marry.
Oh my gosh! You have perfectly put my feelings into words exactly. Who are we to judge another person on their life choices? What absolutely kills me is the two biggest anti-gay people I know are two ladies that I work with. They both claim to be Christians, also. I say "claim" because if they were, they would love their neighbor, no matter who he or she wanted to spend his/her life with. Isn't that what the Bible teaches Christians to do - love thy neighbor? I don't recall the part where it says "love thy neighbor...except the ones that are different from you or choose a lifestyle that you look down your pious nose upon."
Maybe I was absent that day though.
Excellent post!
Thanks for writing it. That last paragraph about the abuse and infidelity has been my argument all along.
Texan Mama worries that people who have strong beliefs about their faith will be called Jesus Freaks, as a bad thing. Having grown up Christian I distinctly remember that Jesus was hassled in his day for hanging out with those that the rest of society had shunned. Seems like a Jesus freak would know that and practice accordingly.
What I wanna know is, why do people who already have the right to marry even CARE? Is someone going to take away their members only jackets?
What makes me mad is all the misinformation that the yes on 8 people are spouting. Churches and synagogues will lose their tax-exempt status? Hooey. Children will be FORCED to learn about homosexuality in schools? Hardly. I've taught in California public schools for almost 20 years now, and I've never once TAUGHT about same-sex couples. It has come up from time to time when I've had kids with gay parents or relatives, but I choose what I teach in my classroom.
People have a right to live the way they want to live. What happened to "pursuit of happiness"???? If they want to live in a same sex relationship, and it's not bothering me, then fine. Thanks for putting a fine voice on the subject!
I was going to write a post on this also, thank you for doing it for me. As I drove home last night (around 7 p.m.) there was a family of 5 standing on a street corner right outside of Money Town holding up "Yes on 8" signs. A heterosexual couple with their 3 young children. (All 3 kids were under the age of 5, the youngest about 2yrs.) The parents had each kid holding a sign and waving it at passing cars. I wanted to roll down my window and yell obscenities at those idiots. The only thing stopping me was those 3 innocent kids. They are being brainwashed by their parents to hate. I can't even tell you how much it pissed me off. I'm having a bitchfest on my site today. I think I need to add a comment to myself just so this included on my list of things to bitch about.
Wonderful post, and I agree 110%.
Personally, I'd like to see the State just get the hell out of the way with marriage. The reason the issue is so confused is because religious communities have a sense of ownership over the concept - as well they should - marriage IS a religious concept.
The problem stems from the state offering to 'marry' people. They don't (really). They register partnerships for tax etc purposes.
So I think all couples should have the same right to register their partnership, and if they want to get married, go to a church/temple/mosque/gay bar that will do it for them, within the meaning framework they choose.
The biggest problem here is that the state 'marries' people - a legacy of 18th century (christian) european beaurocracies. Get rid of that and there's no real problem.
First, thank you for this post! I have a similar reaction whenever I see those "Yes on 8" signs. I also want to knock on people's doors who have "No on 8" signs and give them a high five and a hug.
Second, I want to respond to Texan Mama. You say you think "it's a shame that people who are nice, not haters, just have strong beliefs about their faith will be chastised as being assholes, haters, and Jesus freaks just because they will support Prop. 8." I have to disagree with you. It is not a shame that people, who use their belief in Jesus to defend their hatred for people who are different, are being called out about it. Have you heard of the separation of church and state? Your beliefs about Jesus should not dictate what I can do; that is a right, and it IS in the Constitution.
That second papragraph isn's as eloquent as I had hoped because I am so angry that I am literally shaking. I cannot fathom how anyone can care what other people do behind closed doors, let a lone try to make it against the law. It just boggles my mind, so much so that I can barely write complete sentences!
Sometimes, I just cannot believe the nerve. This weekend, I returned to my car after grocery shopping, and someone had stuck a flyer to "Vote Yes on 8" on my effing car. I picked it up, looked around in hopes to find the culprit and was just so pissed. That's MY CAR, keep your ridiculous propaganda off of it! Proud to say I ripped that shit up and littered.
Prop 8 isn’t simply about gay and lesbians. Proposition 8 is about preserving marriage. It’s not an attack on the gay lifestyle. Proposition 8 doesn’t take away any rights or benefits of gay or lesbian domestic partnerships. Under California law, “domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits” as married spouses. (Family Code § 297.5.) Prop 8 will not change this.
What Prop 8 will do is three things:
1. It restores the definition of marriage to what the vast majority of California voters already approved and human history has understood marriage to be.
2. It overturns the outrageous decision of four activist Supreme Court judges who ignored the will of the people.
3. It protects our children from being taught in public schools that “same-sex marriage” is the same as traditional marriage.
That’s it. But so many people have made it an attack on homosexual couples. It’s not.
This bill is about upholding the will of the people. As a state, we voted back in 2000 to pass Prop 22, defining marriage as between a man and a woman. But 4 state court judges thought they could take the law in their own hands and overturn the will of the people.
The courts were never designed to overturn law; simply to uphold the law the people had approved. The Constitution ensures that the power in our nation lies in the governed, not the government. So for them to come in and overturn a bill we had passed is unconstitutional.
If we allow them to overturn this bill, what stops them from overturning another one simply because they do not agree with it?
(And yes, I’d be this passionate about it if it were simply about voting rights or land ownership.)
Living in Alabamastan, my own opinion of this matter is far from popular. I firmly believe that gay men and gay women have every right to be every bit as miserable as the rest of us poor married bastards. It's both sad and remarkable that in this day and age so many would deny the happiness of others simply because of their own misguided, bigoted, and archaic ideals as to what is and is not acceptable.
And that's a fact.
I just want to start off by saying that I have no problem with gay marriage.
I did want to say that you shouldn't say that you "never – NEVER! – begrudge people their political and social points of view" if you're going to do it in the same post.
Some people have strong feelings on the issue, for whatever reason, and you should try to respect that, no matter what your own views on the subject.
I've been wanting to deface every single Yes on 8 sign and sticker sticker I see and replace the yes with "No" and add, "Stop Discrimination!"
It's disgusting that we're even having to vote on this.
And the television ads are equally disturbing. Those idiots come off sounds like complete hatemongers.
I feel the same way, Danny- it breaks my heart that it's on the table at all. As for whether it's a "chosen" lifestyle? That HAS TO be a joke, right?
What angers me about this proposition, is that it has already been voted on once before, but yet keeps coming back on the ballot. Much like the whole "Great Park/Airport" issue.
I was tweeted over by PsychMamma. Ironically, I am currently working on a post that covers this same topic.
And when I saw your "Fuck you" reaction to the sign, I wanted to scream "Amen!" I'm fed up with it. Disgusted. Disturbed. Disillusioned.
Thank you for speaking up for basic human rights. We need more people who are willing to do that right now.
Word. All the haters out there can F off. Two people who love each other should have the same rights that "straight" people have. Grrr.
To Texan Mama:
Saying that our opinion is the only socially acceptable one seems a bit naive. Think about it, if it were, Prop. 8 wouldn't even be an issue. You can say that it seems to be the only socially acceptable one.. on this blog. Heh.
And you're right about the opinions thing. They are opinions. My opinion is that someone who doesn't agree with another person's lifestyle and is willing to TAKE AWAY (which is really a less fancy phrase as rescinding) someone else's rights when they are of no harm to them or anyone else IS an asshole, hater, etc.. How about we let them "rescind" your right (as a woman), to work, vote, or do whatever else it is women weren't able to do before? I mean, maybe us women should just stay at home and be the soccer moms and trophy wives we used to be. No? Come on now. THAT is also a chosen lifestyle.
I respect your beliefs and faith, but to force it onto someone else is just ridiculous. In my *opinion*.
To Texan Mama ... if "homosexuality is a chosen behavior", when did you chose to be straight?
And think about this ... why on EARTH would anyone DECIDE to be gay? To be spat at in their hometown by their neighbors. Terrorized in their high-school. Written off by their own families. Not welcome in churches. Questioned time and again about personal life details that you'd never DREAM of asking straight folks. Horseshit. No sane person would CHOOSE this.
***********
I'm Republican, I'm straight (apparently "by choice"), I vote, and I cannot WAIT to see 8 go down flaming. Uh ... ok, well ya' know what I MEANT to write.
I saw a similar sign and thought about writing about it today as well. I'm glad you did. I hate this stupid Prop 8 bs. I have a bad feeling it is going to pass, and it just seems like a load of crap to me--not only is it against civil rights, it is also too damn close to violating separation of church and state IMO. And I really wonder about people who feel strongly enough against it to have a sign in front of their house--does it threaten you so much? What are you afraid of?
if you don't believe in gay marriage, don't marry a gay person! why is it that one of my gay friends adopted a child from a married family who had had her taken away because of neglect? why is it that another gay friend just adopted a kid from Vietnam? if marriage are so wonderful, why are there so many divorces? why are so many kids in foster care? live and let live. Great post, DGM!
One of the best moments of my life was participating in our best friends' wedding. They're a lesbian couple who are, it thrills me to say, also the godparents of our children. So, to commentors Texan Mama and Lauren, with all due respect, go fuck yourselves, you self-righteous homophobic bigots.
To Texan Mama who said: "Homosexuality is a chosen behavior."
Perhaps you should research it. That is not true! You're obviously talking about something that has been taught to you in Church... but if you do just a little bit of research on the subject you will see you are wrong!
AND... a big thank you to Dad Gone Mad for today's Blog! Good on you!
As far as government is concerned, marriage is just a legal contract between two people. Religion plays no part in it. And it should stay that way. There are several Yes on 8 yard signs in my heavily Mormon populated neighborhood. We will be skipping them come Halloween. It's been quite an awakening learning how many of my neighbors are douchebags.
As for what 'human history has understood marriage to be', throughout history, humans have 'understood' a lot of things that turned out to be very, very wrong. Hopefully we continue to grow and learn. This is another such growth opportunity.
Allowing more people to marry does not diminish the marriages of people who already are married. Just like allowing more people to vote (women, minorities) does not diminish the rights of others.
I agree with the poster who said part of the problem is semantics -- 'marriage' is a religious concept, the State registers domestic partnerships. Unfortunately, the word has become so embedded in our society that it may well be damned near impossible to separate the two. If we could get our terms straight, it might be easier for people to calm down and think clearly but I doubt it's possible.
And, like most anything in the human condition, sexuality is not always just black or white. Most people fall somewhere on the continuum. For some, there is no choice, straight or gay. For others, there may be a choice. But regardless, everyone should be allowed that choice!
Thanks, Danny.
A-fricken-men
There are times that living in Massachusetts isn't the best. But the marriage freedoms here are ace. Made no matter to me personally, I am already hitched to an amazing lady.
I was pleased that California saw fit to do same, but now prop 8 rears it's ugly head.
yeah, prop 8 is shit and should be shut down.
@Lauren Courts can overturn laws that are unconstitutional.
I've read all of the comments and all I can do is simply laugh. Laugh at all the hypocrisy. I'm sorry, you say all the relegious nuts are "hateful" and "assholes" Is saying, "fuck you" to people with different opinions not hateful? Is somebody who says "fuck you" not an asshole? Open your eyes, people! We're allowed to have different opinions, and we shouldn't be abused or name-called because of it! If you're going to preach tolerance you better make sure you yourself are tolerant.
Thank you, Danny, for being a voice of reason! GREAT post!
Kansas tried to put a ban on it 4 years ago. They worded it so that it would also ban common law and such, so Kansans said hell no to it.
Thank you Danny for a wonderful and honest post. I couldn't agree with you more. The fact that we, here in a country that was founded on the basis of freedom, are trying to take away or prevent the basic freedom for people who love each other to marry based on gender is dispicable.
For anyone to say that people choose to be either gay or straight is pure ignorance. Why would anyone choose to be gay & have the more difficult life? And at what point in a straight person's life did they look at a person of the opposite sex & choose to be straight? It just happes, just as being gay just happens.
Hells yeah.
Whenever I see a "Yes on 8" sign, showing a man and woman with two kids, I wonder how long it will be before I get arrested for only having one child.
Also, I don't wear skirts.
We are so screwed.
@tootsiefarklepants Overturning the will of the people *is* unconstitutional. The Constitution is the guideline for our nation, but the supreme power in the land lies with the people. It's all there in the history books. Not that we've always gone by that, but that's how our nation was founded.
If the people wanted Prop 22 overturned, they should have introduced a bill to do so and put it on the ballot themselves. The judges overstepped their boundaries.
I'm not against homosexual people; I have many friends who are gay. I'm just saying there is a process in which things should be done and that process was overlooked on this issue.
I could sit here and spin a tale of understanding and tact, but fuck that. Prop 8 teaches hate! I just made that shit up, right now!
I saw a commercial for 'yes' on TV last night and all I could think of was the horror I would feel if someone I cared about went on television and proclaimed themselves an idiot like that guy did. People need to get a clue(s).
Lauren,
You have "many friends that are gay?" That's textbook Hate 101.
To Holly: It's your (and my) right to hate people. I believe that would be covered under the First Ammendment, actually. The difference is that we're not trying to pass a Prop banning your right to hate.
I'm not speaking for everyone else here, but I will be the first to admit that I am not tolerant of peolpe who are not tolerant of others. IMO, tolerance is like respect: I respect you until you give me a reason not to.
Whit,
How is that hate? I have friends who are different than me, pointing out that I do not discriminate against people.
Hi, Danny!
Love your blog and thanks for standin up for my peeps ;) My partner and I have two wonderful boys who are now 9 and 12. We are just two boring, responsible people who created a family and are enjoying our lives. She's a teacher and I homeschool the boys and work part-time. We like to camp, kayak and play Rockband with the kids and their cousins. We go to a church where we are loved and embraced just as we are. I teach Sunday school, for crying out loud. What have we done to deserve being denied this civil right?
---L. H.
Guys, let's put a lid on the personal attacks.
Being against homosexual marriage is completely fear-based. What these people are afraid of, the hell if I know. Perhaps it's a lack of faith in themselves and they can't deal with it, so they resist something outside of themselves instead of looking inward.
I could be surrounded by guy couples in my neighborhood and my heterosexual marriage wouldn't be threatened at all. How in the world could it be unless I let it?
What crazy mental games we all play, and this whole "protection" of marriage is just that, a game.
Hoo boy. Where to begin? First of all, Texan Mama, homosexuality is no more a choice than having black skin. I don't know where you're getting your data, but all the recent science disagrees with you. It's hardwired from birth. Deal with it.
Secondly, Tom is right. We have separation of church and state built into the Constitution for this very reason. The government (at every level) needs to get out of the business of "marriage", which is a *religious* institution. Every citizen (gay, straight or otherwise) should have the right to a civil union with an adult partner for tax purposes, custody/guardianship, inheritance/property rights, etc. Then, if you want to observe the religious aspect of your partnership, get married in a church of your choice. If government would quit trying to define a religious issue, we would not have things like Proposition 8 and its ilk cluttering up our political process.
As US citizens, we are guaranteed the right to observe the religion of our choice (or none at all), the right to equal treatment regardless of race, creed or sexual orientation, and the right to be free of ANY church meddling in civil affairs. Unfortunately, the third thing hasn't always gone smoothly.
I have a child and I'm a christian. I'm with Texas Mamma. Because MY beliefs do not accept homosexuality- my child will be shown behaviors I do not approve of- where are my rights as a parent to protect my child's mind from things I do not want him to be exposed to? There was a story in the news YESTERDAY about how a teacher took her grade school class to the courthouse to witness her marriage to another woman. I would have been FURIOUS if my child was in attendance... you may come back with "who are YOU to think Gays lifestyle is wrong, you're just being judgemental"- what I have to say to that is "Where is my freedom/rights to practice and believe as I CHOOSE? To raise my child the way I see fit?" My faith says homosexuality is WRONG. And by the way- there is nothing WRONG with me thinking that or saying it. I don't hate gays- why would I? Am I so perfect? No...do I understand all of it? No. Do I wish ANYONE - gay or straight harm? No. But I do take issue with people who want to judge ME for wanting to worship and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ as given. You say "tolerance" and I say that the VERY tolerance you speak of is what has brought about the moral decay of our country. Sad to say, we are are about to pay a terrible price for the way our country has gone.
(Where Bossy stands and claps and woots.) (Whoots?)
Very well said.
Wowie Dad Gone Mad. You've stirred up a lot of controversy on this one.
I heartily beg to disagree, but since this is a free country, the beauty is that we can agree to disagree.
I do not think Prop 8 has anything to do with tolerance or intolerance of the gay or lesbian lifestyle or whatever it's politically correct to call it these days. I think that the voters who do NOT feel that gay marriage is okay feel THEIR rights to voice their opinion (i.e. vote on it) about this matter was violated. People who do not feel that promoting gay marriage and so forth in the schools and allowing marriage want to have their say, too. They are entitled to their opinions, just like people who are pro-gay marriage. Prop 8 is trying turn around a decision made by some supreme court judges without putting it to the people for a vote.
That is what democracy is all about. We all vote on whether or not gay marriage should be legal and/or be taught in the schools. If the majority says NO then we have to abide by it, whether it hurts the gay community's feelings or not. If the vote is YES, then we have to abide by that, whether it hurts the straight people's feelings or not. Sometimes minorities lose the vote, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they feel persecuted as a race or as a sexual orientation. Human rights and the right to walk around freely is a different thing than legalizing gay marriage or the cirriculum in the schools. We're talking apples and oranges, here. Truly.
Excellent post Danny (giving you standing ovation and clapping).
I live in Washington, but I agree with you. I hope Prop. 8 is defeated. Badly.
And what Jesus Freak said. I have a right to my beliefs just like the gay community has the right to theirs. Majority rules. That's what democracy is all about. Prop 8 doesn't adovcate discrimination; it simply wants to give the vote back to the people for what we want in our state. That's all.
I'm in CA too, with a "No on 8" sign in my yard. It's very telling, the way you phrase that this should have been "laughed" out of there as soon as it was proposed. Nothing gets laughed out any more. Humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time? Sure. What surprises me is that while the "Yes on 8" folks want to remove the (existing) right for gay people to marry, they are not writing up a proposition to ban gays from adopting kids! It would seem to me that gays being allowed to RAISE kids is much more heinous than just marrying another adult. But no. Marriage is sacred, between a man and a woman only, a man and a woman who, statistically, will more likely than not, be divorced soon, it's so sacred.
DGM, THANK YOU. I think those that hide behind their religion ar afraid of thinking for themselves. I am a recovering Catholic, and the things my extended family has done in the name of "protecting their beliefs" is astonishing. My family was slightly homophobic--until my cousin came out.
It's amazing how a belief can change once someone you love enters the equation. I am proud of the way my family now looks at gay and lesbian couples, as well as how many of their other "beliefs" have fallen against intellectual discourse and research.
Every HUMAN deserves to be happy. EVERY ONE. If their idea of happiness is pledging themselves to one another until death, how does that remove your right to be happy? If you can't be happy while those who think differently from you are happy and living their lives, then you've got some soul-searching to do.
I'm so glad to hear other people represent for the separation of church and state on this issue. I love my gay friends and they are entitled to all the rights as me and my husband. But my church shouldn't have to marry them.
Nor, on the flip side, should a Jewish temple have to marry a mixed faith couple (and I know that happens because we're a mixed couple) if it's against their beliefs any more than a Christian Church should have to marry gays if it's against theirs.
We should all get "civil unions" from the government when we go fill out our forms. You want a marriage? You work that out with your priest/rabbi/pundit/imam/shaman/etc.
Let everyone have rights- including the rights to uphold their religious beliefs AND the right to bang whomever they see fit for the rest of their lives....regardless of plumbing set up
DGM, I often have the same reaction. I say "Fuck you" a lot.
But those are just words, aren't they? We don't try to make anyone live the way we think they should.
I guess I think that is the difference between the Prop 8 backers and those who believe gay marriage should be a right.
Hmm.... cant agree with you on this, I personally am a supporter of Prop 8 based on my religious conviction that in the bible it says that man was made for women. I wonder why now are homosexual couples demanding that their union be called "marriage"..for years same sex couples have been receiving the same rights as heterosexual couples (Ie: insurance benefits, adopting childing ect)so why cant they call it something else. I am not meaning to criticize someone different than I.....and I do beleive that everyone has the right to choose their lifestyle and it is not for me to judge them....so someone explain this to me......
Let's deconstruct, shall we?
"Homosexuality is a chosen behavior. Whatever a person feels inside, they can choose to act on those feelings or not." Response:How would a non-homosexual know that? One of my favorite uncles was gay and he no more chose that than he chose being white.
"Having black skin is not a choice." Response: Right on, yo! How profound! When did you notice?
"And "Taking away the right" in California simply means rescinding the right they were given recently. It's not in the US constitution by any means."
Response:If it isn’t in the US constitution, why should it be in any constitution? Does not the US constitution guarantee rights for all?
"Thanks for your voice, though. I know it will get lots of support. I think it's a shame that people who are nice, not haters, just have strong beliefs about their faith, will be chastised as being assholes, haters, and Jesus freaks just because they will support Prop. 8. It seems like the only opinion that is socially acceptable is the one you are voicing, and I am sad about that. I have an opinion too. I don't hate homosexuals but I don't agree with their lifestyle choices. I don't think that makes me a narrow-minded person. It just makes me a person with an opinion. If no one had different opinions in this world, they would not be called opinions; they would be called facts."
Response:Homosexuality is not a lifestyle ‘choice’. Allowing gay people to call themselves married does not take anything away from heteros who are married. It doesn’t degrade one’s personal faith. The choice of the word ‘opinion’ is also very important: when it comes to decisions that LIMIT or TAKE AWAY what should be a basic right, the exercising of which does not harm others or their property, ‘PERSONAL OPINIONS’ should rarely if ever be the basis for common law.
"Prop 8 isn’t simply about gay and lesbians. Proposition 8 is about preserving marriage. It’s not an attack on the gay lifestyle. Proposition 8 doesn’t take away any rights or benefits of gay or lesbian domestic partnerships. Under California law, “domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits” as married spouses. (Family Code § 297.5.) Prop 8 will not change this."
Response: Marriage is not under attack. It doesn’t need to be preserved. Allowing gay/lesbian people to ‘marry’ does not deny that same right to anyone else. Wait, preserving marriage? You mean that institution that ends in divorce roughly 50% of the time among heteros? The one that many people stay in too long sometimes because of religious or familial or societal pressures? Right, right.
"What Prop 8 will do is three things:
1. It restores the definition of marriage to what the vast majority of California voters already approved and human history has understood marriage to be."
Curious, which human history are you citing? Would that be the period from Neanderthals to the birth of Christ? Would that be from Dark Ages through Renaissance? Or maybe from Victorian to the Modern Era? And which groups of humans are you following? Eurocentric? Asiatic? Nomads?
"2. It overturns the outrageous decision of four activist Supreme Court judges who ignored the will of the people."
‘Outrageous’ is an opinion, not a fact. Supreme Court justices are arbiters of the law, but they don’t do it because they feel like it. A decision has to be brought before them, so someone must have brought forth a challenge to it. And as far as that goes, the right to challenge or make an appeal applies to anyone, REGARDLESS OF GENDER OR SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR MARITAL STATUS.
"3. It protects our children from being taught in public schools that “same-sex marriage” is the same as traditional marriage."
Another false, non-issue. Of course the two aren’t quite the same. But that’s like saying Christian marriage is not the same as Islamic marriage. Differences in particulars, but one do not negate the other. They are not in opposition to each other.
"That’s it. But so many people have made it an attack on homosexual couples. It’s not."
Yes, it is. Conservative Christians are using semantics to try and deny rights to homosexuals, all because they don’t like it.
"This bill is about upholding the will of the people. As a state, we voted back in 2000 to pass Prop 22, defining marriage as between a man and a woman. But 4 state court judges thought they could take the law in their own hands and overturn the will of the people." See #2 above.
"The courts were never designed to overturn law; simply to uphold the law the people had approved. The Constitution ensures that the power in our nation lies in the governed, not the government. So for them to come in and overturn a bill we had passed is unconstitutional."
By that reasoning, the Civil Rights Act would never have been passed. Remember segregation? Jim Crow? Women not being able to vote? There were laws on the books denying rights to people because of who they were. So by this logic, the laws should have stayed that way because courts are not designed to overturn law? Okay, then we don’t need a Supreme Court. I guess the Constitution can take care of itself.
"If we allow them to overturn this bill, what stops them from overturning another one simply because they do not agree with it?"
Yeah, what stops them? Maybe actually having a conscience when it comes to human rights.
"(And yes, I’d be this passionate about it if it were simply about voting rights or land ownership.)"
Oh, really? Well, maybe we should revert back to when women couldn’t vote or when people could own slaves. After all, those were laws on the books, representing the so-called will of the people.
To summarize:
1) Stop trying to use the Constitution as a dictionary. It’s too important.
2) Gay is not a ‘choice’ anymore than ‘hetero’. A hetero who does not act on ‘feelings’ is still a hetero. The same principle applies to any sexual orientation.
3) Lots of human beings do share a belief that marriage is between a man/woman. Lots of human beings also believed that the Sun revolved around the Earth, or that Communism was a great system of government. But shared belief does not automatically imply realistic solutions, nor should it necessarily be used to impose a belief system on others who don’t share it.
4) Don’t support or believe in gay marriage? Don’t marry a gay person.
5) Allowing gays/lesbians to marry does not take away hetero rights to do the same, or any other rights for that matter. If your beliefs can be threatened so easily, maybe your beliefs aren’t that strong to begin with.
Sorry for the verbosity. It’s just this kind of b-s makes me angry.
The churches can, and do, deny anyone they want. The government will not force them to do that. The catholic churches where I come from will deny you unless you join their church and follow all their protocol. They will not baptize your child unless you were married in a catholic church. The government will not force them to change that.
Marriage is a word and shouldn't be claimed by the church, even if it started out there. It's a freaking word! Sometimes a word can have multiple meanings. Why can't the word marriage be different when it comes to the church and government?
And those of you who want to protect your kids from things you don't want them to learn.. really? Wow. Just like sex, drugs, violence and Barney, they will learn about it.. It's your job to share with them your opinions.. but don't you think they have a right to decide for themselves what their opinions will be?
Absolutely right on. I know a guy from a church I used to work at and when Ellen Degeneres got married to another woman, he got up on his high horse and talked about how it was an abomination, etc, etc. That's the kind of judgmental, hate-filled behaviour that drives people away from Christianity. Whatever happened to not judging people and letting God do it? (If you believe in that stuff). I don't see how homosexuality can be a choice - you either are or you aren't. I believe that everyone deserves to love and be loved, regardless of gender.
I often wonder why religion plays a part in issues like this. Didn't Jesus teach tolerance and acceptance. Isn't the purpose of religion to help improve the world not tear it apart. Not being in California I can't vote on this issue, but hope for the sake of all of us it doesn't pass.
Right On!!! :-)
"for years same sex couples have been receiving the same rights as heterosexual couples (Ie: insurance benefits, adopting childing ect)so why cant they call it something else."
I don't know where you live but I live in NC and gay couples do NOT have the same rights as married couples. In fact, they have NO rights at all! A gay couple in NC has no more rights than room mates have.
You want to live your life believing in your bible....go for it. We have separation of church and state so that no one's religious beliefs infiltrate laws. And, there is absolutely no credible reason anyone can give as to why gay couples should not be able to marry with all the benefits....except a religious one. There are countries that make their laws based upon their religious beliefs....countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia.
I AGREE 100%!!!! I have been reading you for a while now and I just Love you!! Thanks for having the balls once again to say the right thing! :)
Jesusfreak: "Because MY beliefs do not accept homosexuality- my child will be shown behaviors I do not approve of- where are my rights as a parent to protect my child's mind from things I do not want him to be exposed to? There was a story in the news YESTERDAY about how a teacher took her grade school class to the courthouse to witness her marriage to another woman. I would have been FURIOUS if my child was in attendance..."
Your right to protect your child's mind from things you don't want him exposed to has gone nowhere. You are free to put him in a school where only your beliefs are taught. Free to turn off the TV and filter your Internet connection, ban newspapers and magazines from your home, limit who his friends are based on the beliefs or sexual orientation of their parents (something those children have no control over).
I don't understand this fear of exposure to other beliefs, though. If one's beliefs are so strong and so right, what is there to be afraid of? Exposing my kids to all beliefs, including those like yours (which are your right, of course, but differ from mine) has given them the opportunity to thoughtfully form their own beliefs. We had children not to produce clones of my husband and me, but to produce contributing members of society. It worked - they're both adults now whose beliefs, for the most part, are the same as those they were raised with. Our only influence in their sexual orientation was our genes: in this case, they are both heterosexual, just like their parents.
Here's the part of the field-trip business you see if you break out of Fox News:
"A parent came up with the idea for the field trip - a surprise for the teacher on her wedding day." and "As is the case with all field trips, parents had to give their permission and could choose to opt out of the trip. Two families did. Those children spent the duration of the 90-minute field trip back at school with another first-grade class." So, no need to be furious because your child wouldn't have been there. And it's a charter school; still public but, if I understand correctly, parents choose to have their children attend that school.
Confession time: when my son was in fifth grade a persistent Witness knocked on the door. He had wondered why his friend of the same religion was not allowed to come to our house to play (and I wasn't sure of the actual reason why they didn't socialize outside their religion) so I told him to ask her why. I suggested he ask, "Is it because I have two daddies?" He very much enjoyed asking that.
Danny, my middle child asked for a large Sharpie today. I asked why. Turns out there's a "Yes on 8" sign on the way to school that needs defacing. I sternly told her, "Don't do that."
(I'll do it for you)
Bravo!! I couldn't have said it better myself.
Great piece Danny.
I have a gay aunt and five cousins from a same-sex marriage. I also live in Massachusetts, the first state to allow gay marriage. It's been around for more than four years now and the world hasn't ended. No heterosexual marriages have ended on account of gays getting married.
The difference between Mass and California is that here, our legislators had the guts to block this from getting on the ballot. I know this is a free country, but civil rights should NEVER be decided by a popular vote. If that was the case, there'd be no interracial marriages.
One's religious beliefs should have absolutely no bearing on another person's right to marry. That is just sick and twisted.
PErsonally I do not like the idea. But I personally do not prefer the same sex and this is where the issues lie with most people.
Freedom is the crux that makes us whole and part off these freedoms is freedom of choice and it should be allowed period. Just because something bothers me personally does not mean it is right. Freedom is and will always be the right choice and the joke is that they want to vote for the freedoms that all of us have been given as Americans. How can you vote on something that is given. Abortion is murder just like war is murder. But both are legal and in some cases needed. But lets call it what it is. Why not, that word murder is not accepted just like lesbian and gays, homosexuals are not accepted. Whats next Blacks, Mexican, opps sorry, been their done that.. Well how about Indians?? Opps been their also.
Fight the ignorance of poltics as usual and do what is right.
Right have been given to free people and not taken away.
Thank you so much for writing this. I'm delurking, along with many others, to say THANK YOU for saying this.
Prop 8 is, unfortunately, a very close race right now -- way too close to call. The more people like you speak up, the better our chances of defeating this hateful measure.
Ultimately, it comes down to this:
Regardless of how you feel about marriage for same-sex couples, it is wrong to take away rights from anyone.
I read in the NY Times recently that there has been a rush to the altar for same-sex couples in California. 3,800 same-sex couples are marrying each month. And "the study looked at the three-month period ending Sept. 17. In those months, California had more same-sex marriages than Massachusetts had in four years, researchers say. Massachusetts, the first state to allow such unions, in 2004, has had about 10,300 same-sex ceremonies."
People are desperate to marry before November 4th because they are so afraid this will be taken away. This is what marriage means to people! It breaks my heart.
I've donated 3 times to the No On 8 campaign so far. I've had to really stretch. But I believe in it enough to have stopped going to Starbucks every day until November 4th, and I've taken that amount and donated it. Anyone who wants to join me can do so at www.NoOnProp8.com/contribute.
I just wanted to also point out that not all Mormons are of the same opinion. My personal belief system says that people are who they are. EVERYONE should be able to be as happy as they can be. I don't even know a whole lot of gay people, but why shouldn't they have a chance at their own personal happiness. What does it say about me when I tell my kids to always treat others w/ respect and kindness, then turn around and teach them to have conditions for that kindness? My children will learn that EVERYONE is a child of God, Allah, whatever you believe and that EVERYONE deserves to love, be loved and be given respect and equal freedoms.
A big, fat AMEN from NJ. I wish we could scream this from the rooftops.
I was thinking this this morning...and calling it proposition H8 in my head. I say a little "fuck you" every time I see a bumper sticker too, and have the urge to ram into the back of the car.
I just had a HUGE debate about this yesterday when I was volunteering at my son's school and I was amazed at the misinformation on the other side. Unfortunately, I live in a conservative city and I grimace everytime I see a "Yes on 8" bumper sticker. I was curious about the other side's arguments so the mom I spoke with yesterday (who is VERY involved with her church ) had two reasons that we had to vote Yes on 8:
1)God defined marriage in the Bible as man and woman
2)If this passed teachers would ABSOLUTELY be teaching about gay marriage in the schools.
Since I was a high school teacher, I tried to inform her that there wasn't "literature" that I was now going to teach about "gay marriage". I never talked about heterosexual marriage in my ten years of teaching, why the hell would I incorporate it now? Teachers barely have time to teach the mandated information with all the testing. She insisted that it would be taught in the schools and she cited that horribly misleading commericial with the little girl talking about two princesses. Barf.
I shudder at the fact that many churches are leading this movement. Probably why I am no longer an active member in any church. I'm still searching for one that preaches love, acceptance and tolerance FOR ALL PEOPLE because that is what my God preaches.
Phew. I guess I needed to vent on that one. Thanks for posting.
Hi Danny,
I know I am being redundant here, but THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for this post!
I have been feeling the same way since prop 8 first came up... why is it still okay to hate gays? We can't (or wouldn't) openly say that blacks shouldn't have the right to get married. We would never claim that Jews are threatening our lifestyle with their own. History has shown how wrong societies (our own included) were for their treatment of sub-groups. But why can't people see that our own current treatment of the homosexual minority is just as wrong!? I can't believe when I hear people (who are otherwise kind, generous, friendly people) saying, without a second thought, that letting gays have the same rights we do somehow threatens us.
The only thing threatening any marriage is the two people in it. Not anything anyone else is doing with his or her own spouse/partner.
I care so much about this issue. I love the way you've written about it. Dan Savage wrote a great piece for This American Life some time ago about how his son was the only person in his life who didn't want him and his partner to get married. This is including at least one fundamentalist parent, if I remember correctly. Savage's son had a friend whose parents were getting divorced. It basically came down to "if you get married, you can get divorced. if you don't get married, you will stay together." It was a really touching story. Find it and listen/read, if you can.
You are probably the kindest, most tolerant person I know Danny. I'm so glad I know you.
xo (and see you saturday!)
Marry me?
Oh, that's right, we are both already married because we CAN.
People here in San Francisco are working VERY HARD to defeat Prop 8 but don't have enoguh money to air their ads as much as the Yes nuts. That is wrong.
Thanks for saying this out loud!
I also would like to put my 2 cents in.
I think it's really funny for the "preserving marriage" comments. I mean, really, if it is that big of an issue you should probably look at all the divorces, etc, etc. My father was married 4 times during my childhood and was an alcoholic. this made for a pretty pathetic childhood. my best friends dad was married 3 times and also was an alcoholic who use to beat the shit out of her.
actually, I think having gays being able to call their unions marriage will probably be more perserving then our self destructive hetero-sexuals.
and as for the people wanting to "protect" their kids? come on now. I think there are bigger things to worry about then gay marriages. maybe child molesters (which, btw, happens a LOT in church...), kidnappers, drugs, sex (& rock and roll!). I wish we could put more energy into worrying and stopping things like that.
I figure once states quits issuing "marriage certificates" Then the use of the word marriage becomes unimportant. I didn't get married in a church but I am still married. I would be happy to say "I am civilly unioned to my partner" rather than "married to my wife", if it meant EVERYONE gets to marry ANYONE*** they want.
***"ANYONE" does not include: dogs, cats, birds, children, elephants, people in comas, turkeys, primates, your own severed foot, the moon, China( the Country not the wrestler, you are free to marry or civilly union her), a hammer, tuna fish (canned or alive), a leather clad horse, or Barak Obama. Hopefully I covered everything the "conservatives" will try to say some people will marry, if gay marriage is legalized.
Thank you Danny. xo
Thank you Danny. xo
thanks
Right On!!
and Thank You.