It doesn’t happen often but once in a while I feel embarrassed about being a part of the so-called parent blogging community. Most of the time we’re a collection of smart, funny, insightful writers who blend personal experience with wit and poignancy. But once or twice a year our community as a whole takes a giant crap right in the middle of the living room floor. I include myself in this reprimand.

Perhaps you have seen THIS.

I will stipulate at the outset that my personal feeling about circumcision is closer to Alice’s than the other two women on the video. But for the purposes of this discussion, that’s not particularly relevant. The germane issue in my mind is the way we relate to one another, particularly in the domain of quote-controversy-unquote. That said, I also stipulate that my goal here is not to launch a personal attack against anyone in the Momversation piece; it was merely the impetus for this diatribe.

When did we stop treating one another with respect? When did it become OK to supersize a disagreement with someone else’s opinion by adding hurtful, gratuitous aspersions about that person’s character? Are we so insecure that we cannot simply disagree without stomping on the reputation of those who believe otherwise? I ask these questions not only of you, but also of myself, for I too was guilty this week of leaving a comment on Finslippy that, though I intended it to be funny, caused a good friend to wince because the issue carried great personal significance to him.

We do this every year or so with breastfeeding too. Someone somewhere on the Internet stands up and says, “BREASTFEEDING IS WRONG!”

Naturally this draws he ire of breastfeeding bloggers, many of whom stand up and say, “BREASTFEEDING IS NOT WRONG AND YOU’RE AN ASSHOLE FOR SAYING IT IS!”

“NO, IT’S WRONG! AND YOU’RE A BITCH FOR CALLING ME AN ASSHOLE, BITCH!”

And so forth. This is what I was referring to in the first paragraph.

This week it was different. This week someone said (paraphrasing), “I am totally, totally against circumcision. It’s barbaric and awful and horrible. Right?” And you know the rest of the story.

There’s a point to all of this, and here it is: I would like us (myself included) to re-evaluate the way we disagree with each other. Like it or not, we are “parenting bloggers”, which in turn means we are the examples our kids will follow. If this is the way they treat one another online, it’s probably not a huge departure to the way we treat people in real life.

Speaking personally, this is not the me I want my kids to see. Nor is it the kind of spiteful prick I want them to become.

Comments

Yep, when people feel passionate about something their first response is an internal drive up in angst and they become . . . ferocious, when their message would be much more effectively delivered if they just CHILLED OUT and had a rational discussion.

LOL - I just caught the nice play on words with the post title.

I completely agree with the message of this post, but I went to Finslippy's site and I really couldn't figure out what you had commented that was hurtful or disrespectful. It was obviously tongue-in-cheek humor and while I appreciate your attempt to lump yourself in with the rank-and-file disrespecter (disrespetor?) who pervades modern life, I have to say I don't think you said anything that could be interpreted as disrespectful.

Keep up the humor--we certainly need it these days!

(Fill in name) you ignorant slut...

Danny;

I agree with most of what you say. The part that I strongly disagree with is the fact that it should stop at just "parent bloggers" should stop doing this bull shit of beating each other up and trying to insult each other with words like BITCH and ASSHOLE. I think my 2 and 3 year olds honesty is a lot better when they both yell and scream at me when they feel like violated because I wouldn't let them use permanent marker on the television screen. ... again.

We should ALL stop calling each other names, and open our fucking ears to what each other have to say about how we think, feel and understand our own world, personal space, and environments. My environment at home is different than your environment, and there would be no question that I may feel differently about your environment. This doesn't preclude the fact that I cannot ever bring myself to say that your environment is better or worse than mine.

In my world, all of 2009 has been listening to people maliciously tease, threaten and insult anything and everything my wife tries to share with the world. She's an honest woman, very lovable, and wants to share and learn from other people. Unfortunately, there are a lot of asshats who have to hide behind their computer screens and make fun of, or twist anything and whatever she wants to share. Its come to the point where she's had to "take a vacation" from the internet to calm her nerves. She's lost a lot of trust in people, both online and offline, and even at times questioned her trust in me. Because of those fuck-nuts who have nothing better to do, she needed to know if I was the one orchestrating the people who were teasing her. That hurt more than when she inadvertently slapped my scrotum and knocked me to my knees faster than a bag of potatoes being dropped to the floor.

I fully endorse the "parenting community" to stop the name calling, but fuck people, we ALL need to just listen to what the other person is saying, think it through and TRY to understand why THEIR environment makes them think the way they do, and not jump down their throat when its something we do not agree with.

Well, I thought your comment was funny. My husband is, in his words, "technically Jewish" and is circumcised. Our son, by mutual consent, is not. Which led to a very interesting bathtub conversation with our daughter about foreskins and who has one and who does not.

Couldn't agree with you more. It is completely fine to disagree, Lord knows the world would be boring as hell is we all just agreed with each other! However, we should all be able to respect each other's opinions without attacking one another. Well said Danny.

I was listening to the radio this morning and they were talking about how people will deface other's myspace and facebook pages. I think it is amazing that we as a culture think it is perfectly okay to slam people on the internet with things that we would never say to each other's faces. Personally, I am kind of mouthy so I say what is on my mind in life and on the web. But, I have always followed this rule of thumb and I have been trying to impart it on my step-daughters as well. "Never say anything on the internet that you wouldn't say out loud in a room full of people with your grandmother watching." It has served me well over the years.

I don't want to get all Jesus on you, but I like to think I live by the words, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I understand having strong convictions, but you can have them without slamming other people in the process.

I, for one, was thrilled to see the topic discussed because we wanted our son circumcised, but the urologist wouldn't do it because of his underlying health problems. In his words, "I won't do an elective procedure on a patient when one of the potential side-effects is death". He's a chipper fellow, that doctor.

As a mom, I've been concerned that my son (who is already different) would be ridiculed. I am glad to know there are other boys out there who are going to look like he does.

I did a post on circumcision before my son was born: http://talesfromthedadside.blogspot.com/2008/09/snip-snip.html

(Just getting that out there for a frame of reference.)

I try to present my opinions on my blog clearly as MY OPINIONS, not rules that I require people to follow, not ideas that I expect everyone to agree with. Everyone raises their kids differently. Everyone lives their whole lives differently. Why, when we blog, do we expect everyone to agree with us?

I spent a lot of time getting the concept of wrong vs. different across to my wife when we were still dating. If I did something differently than she did, it was "wrong", mainly because that's how she was raised. I explained that while I did not do something how she did it, the end result was no less OK than her way, making my way not "wrong", just different.

I think that's what happens a lot in blogging. People encounter an idea contrary to their own, and rather than express it as a difference, they express it as being wrong. Consequently, the "wrong" person gets defensive, and the whole thing degrades into name calling and what not.

Welcome to the world of women. We have done this to each other since...since...I don't even know since when, but we do this for sport.

SAHM vs. carreer girls. breastfeeding vs. bottlefeeding. Cook special dinners for your kid moms vs. eat what we eat and like it moms.

This list goes on. Why? I have no idea.

I've been doing the message board thing for a while- prior to joining the blogosphere. And I've seen these heated arguments many, many times. And, I have to admit, even been part of them. I blame it on post-partum mama bear hormones from my first baby.

It's easy to get caught up in an issue and feel like you have to DEFEND your decisions because if you don't, someone is obviously attacking your parenting and deciding you are a "bad parent."

What I've learned... is that it really doesn't matter. I have my opinions and am even passionate about some of them. I'll go to great lengths, for example, to help a mom form a great breastfeeding relationship (I've offered oodles of online resources and advice, been on phone calls with new moms, and even gone to homes of close by moms to help) because I know that a strong support system is what makes breastfeeding work. However, if someone wants to tell me I'm a bad mom because I still nurse my 15 month old... ok. Someone else's opinion really doesn't impact me- as long as I don't let it.

Unless it's my mom talking. Then I have no control over my emotions.

I don't think that this issue of respect is the "world of women" like ForMyself suggested. I think this post is very thoughtful and I completely agree with Danny/Alice's perspective. What a shame to mock the positions and feelings had by others. Bleh.

I am guilty of having a wicked sense of humor that I struggle to keep in check with my opinionated self, while balancing my "Martha" with my "Mary".

While women are guilty of the one-upsmanship, I'm appalled at the disrespect shown the leadership of our country. Disagree? OK. But we've stooped to a level of bitter, hateful, ugly that is disturbing. Our children's sake, "be careful little eyes what you see" - what example are we setting?

it pisses me off when people WHO ARE NOT JEWISH tell me that i am hiding behind my religion. whatever. i am jewish. my son is jewish. ergo my son had a bris. and no, i don't feel bad about it. but, apparently, some women on the internet, some women WHO ARE MY FRIENDS think i'm a barbaric asshole.

asshole, yes
but
barbaric?

Internet tough guy syndrome.(see:troll)

It's very easy to insult and denigrate people who you have a million to one chance of ever meeting in person. I'm all for intelligent discourse, and obviously there are a ton of differing opinions, especially when it comes to child rearing. Something about the relative anonymity of the internet just seems to bring out the worst in people.

I recall commenting on a post by the late, great Cheeky Lotus regarding her finances, and was immediately jumped on and insulted by all corners of the internet for having the gall to take issue with her. It happens all the time.

Measured by some of the comments I've seen, there are bloggers in the parenting community who I would not welcome in my home based on some of these comments.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to be at the gym in 26 minutes.

I know, I sound like an 80-yr old woman, but when did it become ok ... if not expected ... for people to be so freaking RUDE to one another? I think it's all the Jerry Springers of the world, where people are encouraged to get all up in one another's grill for the sake of "entertainment". It's not entertaining, it's not ok. Like everyone before me has said (and said much more eloquently than me anyway) ... *different* is not wrong. It's ok to disagree ... no need to be an asshole about it. Freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom to attack with words. Kudos to you, Danny, for the reminder.

Hallelujah brother. And like others have said, this doesn't just apply to bloggers, but to people who comment on others blogs or on parenting forums. It amazes me when parents will lash out at other parents for their points of view without even spending 30 seconds to consider where the other person is coming from or what their actual point was. People can just be mean and it is so ironic because you have to think that they would never accept that behaviour from their children. But it's OK for them? The anonymity of the Internet seems to bring out the worst in some people.

I have been wanting to post about this issue for months and months and months. I shall now post the comment I left over on finslippy, here:

The over-arching theme that infuriates me is when "progressive" pro-choice women are ONLY pro-choice when it comes to abortions. We will fight tooth and nail and pound on doors and attend rallies and protests and write our senators to make sure we still have the CHOICE to make decisions for our own bodies.

But if you even think for a %$#&ing second about making a "wrong" choice when it comes to child birth, home schooling, spanking, etc. all of those wonderful "progressive" ideals of choice are thrown out the window. Sorry for sounding misogynistic, but this is one thing about women that infuriates me. Yes, women. The obvious dichotomy lies only with women. Judgments shoved at you, nasty comments left, angry emails sent ... all for the benefit of imposing our OWN choice upon others.

I really wish we'd start living and acting as pro-choice as we claim to be. To each her own...

Parenting is a high-stakes game and apparently it's graded on a curve. I have seen perfectly rational women rip each other to shreds over parenting choices that DON'T involve surgical cuts on their children. Add the anonymity of the internet, and man. It's like a pack of hyenas.

I know this is the reason I stay away from certain topics on my blog.

I think it is odd that it is a Momverstion since there isn't a mom out there that knows what it feels like or the effects on the child when he is a grown man.

I personally went with my husband's opinion on my two boys (they have crew necks, not turlenecks).

I also agree with your opinion...I believe we all make our own decisions based on what you feel is right at the time. I don't understand why some people feel they have the right to hurt others with their opinion!!

Thanks for addressing this Danny. I was shocked at how Daphne attached Alice for being "wrong" because she had a different opinion on the subject. Who died and made any of us better than the next? Personally attacking some because of their beliefs makes you appear immature and ignorant. I am proud of Alice for being strong and not backing down, changing her opinion or becoming defensive like most of us would have.

Keep up the good work. Oh, and I'm ready for that book to come out already!

Um....I find it disturbing that people are so quick to assume you are mindless and thoughtless because you follow tradition. My grandfathers, father, cousins, and husband were all circumcised, and I was taught that it is clean and has, generally, no side effects or ramifications. I'm sure that is not always the case, but some people die in childbirth, too, soooo....let's never have kids, then. (If people don't like that parallel, then don't equate circumcision with FGM, a practice designed to further the repression of women?? - WTF?) Whatever. I don't have a problem with people leaving baby boys intact, so why should they have a problem with me following a tradition that my son doesn't even remember and would have no clue about if there weren't snake-swallowers out there? If he decides someday that his father and I cheated him out of his foreskin and confronts us, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Somehow, I just don't think he cares.

I agree with you, Danny, that video was a dog pile on people who have a differing opinion and I felt for Alice. It's a prime example of exactly how adults shouldn't behave. Speak your mind, offer your reasoning, don't resort to insults and blanket assumptions.. Unless you are me, of course, as I have a lot of growing up to do.

I agonized over the decision of whether or not to circumsize my son. I'm not going to bother revealing my choice, because it's obviously a very heated topic.

I usually stay away from these types of debates - I was on a local parenting website where threads had to be shut down due to all the slapping, hair pulling and name-calling. Live and let live. This debate has been done to death. People will do what they want, regardless of what names others' call them.

Perfectly said, per usual. This is one of those issues, like breastfeeding, where everyone gets all up-in-arms.

But seriously, people? It comes down to a matter of choice, and doing what works best for you and yours. We need to teach our kids how to treat each other respectfully, even if we disagree.

Most boys on my side of the family are circumcised. My two boys are not, so they can "be like their Dad". I shared that over at Alice's site as well, and I once again am thankful that my husband does not read blogs or he would be ten shades of red right now.

You are soooooooo right. If we can't behave in a civilized manner. What can we then expect from out children. Jokes are well and good and I wouldn't want to live in a world without them but personally attacking someone and calling them a name because you disagree is not making our society better. Too often people make judgements without knowing the full story or even considering that there is more to the story. And yes, bloggers may be guilty and it's a good place to start but this is a much more far reaching problem than that.
Bravo
Kellie

The internet provides us both the courage and audacity to freely unleash whatever emotion we deem fit towards others. Computers become passive-aggressive venting machines that sometimes reduce us to be infantile and cruel. Strange animals we are. I like the positive approach, myself, golden rule style. Well inked post, dgm.

I'm going to fess up here as the individual who wrote the e-mail to danny that inspired this post. I knew danny was just (I think rightfully) hoping to support alice with his comment. Of course his comment was funny and was only intended to be funny---this is danny we're talking about---but I just wanted to let him know that I've heard a lot of funny jokes made at the expense of uncircumcised penises over the years and I just wanted him to think about how perpetuating those kind of jokes can actually hurt and create self-consciousness about an organ that already inspires plenty of self-consciousness in most boys at some point in their lives. the idea that uncut dicks look weird is just a result of circumcision being so widespread in this country over the last few generations. my guess is most gentiles throughout history would have actually thought circumcised penises are weird-looking. and making fun of people (or phalli) just because they look different (and I know danny understands this) is wrong.

then danny goes and writes this post and I feel bad for making him feel so bad for doing little more than making a joke. which I guess goes right to heart of what he's talking about here: why is it so easy to make each other feel bad?

The fact that there is such a vigorous debate on this subject makes me hopeful for one thing: that when our boys are older in every American locker room there will be a few uncut dicks along with the cut ones, that kids won't be called names or mocked as quickly just because of a choice their parents made either way. dicks are all kind of weird, and they come in all different sizes, shapes, and angles. and no matter what someone's parents choose to do with them, they are going to spend most of their time where the sun don't shine.

too bad most of us can't keep our passions on the subject that hidden.

I am not a mommy but I read a few mommy blogs and a few daddy blogs. I caught that video at finslippy's blog and it about made my head implode. I lelt a nasty little comment about it at momversations to head off my head coming off. It worked, I felt better. The first...I really hate to use the word mother... in the video had better hope she doesn't raise a child just like herself. She's nasty, narrow minded and arrogant. We don't need children like that coming up in this world. I hope she saw herself and was embarrassed and ashamed.

Great post. I saw the video and thought Alice did a decent job at defending herself. I'm surprisingly indifferent - I wanted my husband to decide what to do with our son, after all, he has a closer relationship with his dick than I have with his dick - I think... Best not to analyze this too closely... :-D
But seriously, when it comes to passionate subjects, I think our kids drive us to this insanity. We spend all day every day, and many many many nights we want to forget, being the voice of reason and simmering down our little tantruming children. Then we get into a discussion like this and that little toddler in us says "I've been dealing with tantrums all day! I want to have one too! and I'm going to have it now Now NOW!"
Resistance is futile.

You are not EVER allowed on my living room floor.

Only Jim could write such an eloquent, sentimental comment about dicks, er penises.

You asked, "When did we stop treating one another with respect?" The answer is, the moment we stopped treating our infants with respect.

And somehow, I think that it's the NOT feeling bad about making others feel bad that's the problem. It's all too easy to think our feelings are the only fragile ones and that everyone else is too strong and well adjusted to be offended by some random internet disrespect.

When it comes to differences of opinions about personal stuff...we need to stay out of each other's lives. I don't care who's got what kind of penis. I'm not really interested in the subject. When it comes to debates over issues that have more of a global effect--vaccinations, comes to mind--I can understand why people get heated. Understand, mind you, not tolerant.

Not to get all political, but I really think this intolerant attitude towards others came in the wake of 9/11. As we were gearing up for war, we were told by the people in charge if you're not with us, your against us. That was the first time I really noticed that all room for public debate had been taken away. Defenses went up. And frankly, it's kind of gone downhill from there.

Thanks for writing this post.

UGH!!! Ate my post! The point was I agree we need to disagree in a better way than can be found on any baby/kid group website. And that I love wondersis and Jim. It was better the first time. Thanks Danny.

If you ever approach my dick with a pair of shears, I'm bringing the noise. And the automatic weaponry.

...and I try to teach that in kindergarten- but the folks who are rude are the ones who wouldn't learn it back then and are still always right.

Hallelujah . . . could you have a conversation with my father about this very subject? And maybe Fox News? Thanks for the post and your great blog.

It'd be fabulous if parents in general - offline or on - would realize that we are all dealing with the same mountain of uncertainty and insecurity and approached each other with, at best, a little more compassion and, at the very least, some basic respect.

Forget blogging... I unfortunately see this on a daily basis. It's so sad that this has become routine discourse. I keep trying to teach the wee ones that it's ok to think different things. And if you're right, it's ok if others don't believe you so long as you know you're right. I hope this touches someone. And that somehow we can find civility again.

And I almost ended this with snark but ... thought better of it :)

I'm not old enough to know if this is the way it's always been, but it certainly seems to be the way it is now across the social spectrum, and I'm as guilty as anyone else.

My friends and I had a discussion about how Americans like to judge others and don't like it when others judge us. I said I'm still trying to figure out how we became so disrespectful to each other not only online but those those who live in other countries, who think and do things differently, I've seen many articles written that feel we need to let them know what they are doing wrong. (I'm not talking about matters where the US and other countries have had to get involved and have determined it's inhumane or human rights violation) I'm talking culture differences.

Do we not realize that the words we speak to each other speaks volumes to everyone around the world? To me this makes us look judgmental, hypocritical, and somewhat spoiled rotten. And many Americans sit back and wonder why so many countries hate us, why our economy is in a downturn, why our children believe that they can say and do what they want, no one has any discipline, etc. No one should try and force their own beliefs on anyone nor should they criticize those that don't agree.

This is just my own opinion and now I think I'll go blog about it. :-)

Parenting sure does reveal our tender spots, doesn't it? I completely agree on the need to keep the conversation civil. Breastfeeding, especially, is one I stay away from. There are so many things that go into each decision we make as parents and we lump enough guilt on ourselves. We don't need it from people who don't know us.

I am with the camp who let my husband decide. He wasn't circumcised and neither is our son. I didn't really want to do it but would have if my husband had chosen to do so. Our son spent a week in the NICU and we decided not to unless he had infections or other problems. He's 5 now and so far, so good. He can always choose to do it as an adult. I know that is much more painful (so they say - I think it must ALWAYS be painful - how do we know what babies feel?) but, at least it will be his choice.

I agree with you to a point but not all ideas are created equally. If an idea is outright stupid like say, let's give 10% of our income to the Space Monkeys from Zombieville then they really don't deserve much by way of respect.

I guess what I'm saying is that passion is what make debates interesting and not all notions deserve to play on a level field.

Funny this topic came up. In Sunday School last week, we were studying the Book of Acts and specifically Peter's report to the Church at Jerusalem saying, "why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?" Every time I read this passage I envision the maitre d' saying, "Drop trowel gentlemen - cut dicks to the left and intact dicks to the right!" Too much. Those chicks over at momversation need to get a life!

Nice post. You said it well, "we are the examples our kids will follow." Whenever I find myself behaving not as I should, I think, "Is this the kind of man I want my daughter to marry." That straightens me out pretty fast.

Guilty as charged BUT I've never called anyone a bitch or an asshole for disagreeing with my very strong opinion on circumcision, or any parenting decision though. There's a way to say what you want to say without name calling. Well said, Danny.

I must say it's ironic that I read you post this. Why just last night I posted this

that was supposed to be a link...

http://262291.blogspot.com/2009/02/our-prosaic-existence.html

It's funny that I read this article this morning just last night I wrote an article of a similar topic

http://262291.blogspot.com/2009/02/our-prosaic-existence.html

Hey Danny - longtime reader, occasional poster.

It's a tricky topic, precisely because those against the surgery often see it on a human rights level, and not on a more mundane this-is-just-another-parental-decision level. It's important for the anti-circ crowd to understand that no parent intends to do his or her child harm, and it's important for the pro-circ crowd to understand how serious the other side sees the issue. You don't have to agree - just understand.

I'm the father of an intact son, and yep, I'm an intactivist. I support the efforts of NOCIRC and the legislation to cover boys under the 1996 FGM law (they're more alike than most people seem to think). But in terms of public debate, I have found that you're much more likely to win hearts and minds by educating rather than attacking.

Thanks for keeping important parental topics in public view, and reminding us that we need to exhibit civilized behavior in any debate.

Well said!

While I certainly agree that civility is a worthy aim, it always seems a bit disingenuous to me when big bloggers get cranky about the very controversy that is driving traffic to their sites. If people didn't care enough one way or the other about circumcision to get het up about it, it wouldn't have made it to being a topic on Momversation, and Finslippy wouldn't be making money off getting "attacked" and then bewailing the fact that there is virulent disagreement.

It's like Dooce complaining about hate mail or celebrities whinging about the paparazzi. Except in cases where there's a credible threat to real-life safety, the notoriety of controversy is a blogger's best friend.

While I certainly agree that civility is a worthy aim, it always seems a bit disingenuous to me when big bloggers get cranky about the very controversy that is driving traffic to their sites. If people didn't care enough one way or the other about circumcision to get het up about it, it wouldn't have made it to being a topic on Momversation, and Finslippy wouldn't be making money off getting "attacked" and then bewailing the fact that there is virulent disagreement.

It's like Dooce complaining about hate mail or celebrities whinging about the paparazzi. Except in cases where there's a credible threat to real-life safety, the notoriety of controversy is a blogger's best friend.

Whoa. Did you just delete WhatAboutMom's comment or am I blind? I thought it was a perfectly respectful way of expressing her view, which was interesting and fuel for discussion. Are you editing stuff you don't agree with? Yikes. I don't do that on my blog. Completely against my ethics.

Oh my goodness. How are you not embarrassed about this? Don't you feel like it lacks integrity to only keep comments that you likey? Ones that praise you or agree with you? It shows strength of character to keep them up. They were not even rude at all! I'm flummoxed. Shocked. Am I unusually awesome or are you unusually insecure? Is this common procedure?

I'd heard about this momversation and I thought I'd give it a watch.

Boy was I confused when the sponsored ad for Christina Aguilara's new album cut in the middle of the video. She starts signing about "its gonna be a train crash."

Ironicly funny.